Kickstarter

[Qhesz]

**This post is merely about setting things straight, and is in no way related to Subset Games or FTL**

I said over here (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=318) how I thought Kickstarter works (mostly in regards to accountability of project creators), and that I'd check out the Terms of Use and see what's what.

Instead of correcting the things that I got wrong, let me start from scratch:

Kickstarter is a shop. You are purchasing the items that are detailed in your reward tier. There is no concept of investment in Kickstarters, all you are entitled to is what is written in your reward tier.

As for accountability in Kickstarter projects, there is good news:
"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill." (from the Terms of Use)
"You shall not ... Submit Content, that you know is false, misleading or inaccurate." (Content is basicly anything you can put up on the site)
A little less binding is:
"The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by.
Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date."

So if a project absolutely does not fulfill a reward, they would have to give a refund, or face the consequences of violating the Terms of Use (I assume that means the backers could sue them in some shape or form, justice prevails).

On the other hand, there is no hard date for fulfillment of rewards (if pressed, Creators just have to show they tried), and as soon as the rewards are more ambiguous (say, "The finished product"), I feel it's going to be crazy difficult to prove that a reward has not been fulfilled.
As this guy put it, there are "gooey, subjective bits like "Technically, we got a *game*, but it's got more bugs than an Entomologist Convention"." And you won't be able to take that back to the shop to get a refund.

So I suppose what I'm saying is, don't be totally enchanted by kickstarter, understand what you're in for, be cautious with what you back and everybody should be happy.
I still think it's a fantastic service and has got some awesome projects off the ground. I'll continue to use it and participate in shaping the future of game development.

Terms of Use:
http://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use?ref=footer
That guy:
http://stoicstudio.com/forum/archive/in ... /t-38.html
Article on how to approach Kickstarter:
http://penny-arcade.com/report/editoria ... aigns-are-
Plans for an actual crowd-investment platform:
http://penny-arcade.com/report/editoria ... al-investm
Another 'be careful' article (about the Mythic kickstarter):
http://www.itworld.com/business/273550/ ... -out-there
Another 'Kickstarter's not the greatest' article:
http://www.gatheryourparty.com/articles ... -industry/
(I realise this list looks a bit unbalanced, but the pros of Kickstarter speak for themselves )
(ps, is there spoiler tag feature on these forums? And yes, I have 2 assignment deadlines looming, so naturally I go and spend hours googling and writing this stuff up instead. )

[Maze1125]

So if a project absolutely does not fulfill a reward, they would have to give a refund, or face the consequences of violating the Terms of Use (I assume that means the backers could sue them in some shape or form, justice prevails).

I don't believe that means you're any more able to sue than you would be without it.
Terms of Use are, as far as I'm aware, an agreement between a service provider and user. So, if a project just took our money and gave nothing in return, the ToU mean that Kickstarter could ban them from ever posting another project, nothing more. Most forum sites have a similar set of rules, but that doesn't mean you can sue another user if they've flamed you, against the rules or not, it just means they get banned by the site.

That, however, doesn't mean we can't sue. It just means that the suit would depend on the merits of the case alone, with none of Kickstarter's rules providing any back-up either way.

[Qhesz]

After a brief discussion with a legal savvy friend, I think the ToU amounts to an implicit contractual agreement.

A more pertinenet point that they brought up is that no one's going to sue for $20. The legal process would be expensive, and I can't imagine any individual organising a class action, which would also be really expensive.

So really, push comes to shove, I can't imagine much being done. I'm kind of leaning back toward my opinion that Kickstarter's really only a glossy donation service, in terms of how definitely assured you can be of getting your reward. Which means it falls back to trust, which I'm happy to give to the projects that I decide to back.

[soratidus999]

LUCKILY here in Australia we actually have an intelligent legal system

"What would a reasonable person do" now that phrase has and can be stretched to basically mean dont be an idiot

if you donate to kickstarter and the final product isnt what they said it would be... tough shit

its $20... you'll get laughed out of court, because really... the final product A) never is and B) may have had to change... as long as its similar you have no argument

unlike you sue happy americans....

[Warbird]

it's got more bugs than an Entomologist Convention"

I'm going to be borrowing that for something. Well said.

LUCKILY here in Australia we actually have an intelligent legal system

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you there sir. You guy's ban the most interesting things, M rated games for example. That would be quite a kick in the shorts if FTL got a "M" rating and you couldn't get it. I wonder what the legal mumbojumbo around that would be for getting a refund...

[Qhesz]

For the record I'm Australian, and also for the record the terms of use explicitly state that they are bound by law in the state of New York, and any legal proceedings regarding them have to go through New York courts.

Yeah, game ratings have been retarded in Australia. But that was mostly due to a single guy on the ratings panel/board/thing, and he's resigned now. Which I think means we will get an R18+ game rating soon, instead of anything deemed worse than MA15+ being banned completely. And there have been several major cases where games given MA ratings in other countries were deemed R18+ here and thus banned.
As for Kickstarter, I'd imagine if the reward content is banned in your country, that's your problem.

I agree that there's a bigger culture of sueing in the US than Aus, not that that's necessarily any 'better' or 'worse'.

[soratidus999]

Our film and television board set ratings, and because there is no r18 rating there is no choice but to ban it

usually M games arent a problem - its MA games that sit on the edge depending on who's on the rating board that day

our r18 probs stemmed from our governer-generals in each state ALL having to agree on a r18 rating being introduced

remember how i said we have intelligent courts... well politicians - not so much

we also had a ton of religious groups brewing up a hate campaign against video games *sigh*

For the record I'm Australian, and also for the record the terms of use explicitly state that they are bound by law in the state of New York, and any legal proceedings regarding them have to go through New York courts.

- ah didnt see that!

also great to see aussies around qhesz!

[Sureshot]

There's a second option - you could always sell your Kickstarter "share" to someone else? There are a number of people (I am one) who missed the initial sale and would happily pay to join in the development.

I wonder what Kickstarter's policy would be in selling your place in the queue, or your share?

[Qhesz]

Firstly, Kickstarter has nothing to do with investment or shares. It is a shop, where you can buy a product (ie a game) before it exists. By doing so you can also make it possible for the product to ever be made at all.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'your place in the queue', but Kickstarter couldn't care less what you did with the product you recieved. Once a campaign has ended, Kickstarter takes its 5% cut and no longer has any interest whatsoever.

[Justin]

Someone said that Kickstarter is entertainment. It's entertaining to have a shared common dream and hoping that it comes out the way you wish it does.

Probably this is just part of the whole picture but i thought it was an interesting take on it.